.357 vs .357 sig...

  • I've got one of the first Gen 17Ls from the 1990s, great factory trigger, looks quite a bit different from the later gens obviously, but I've kept it a long time. I had one of the G34s too, but got rid of it as I bought it to shoot a specific class but decided I was in enough different IDPA/etc classes already when I was shooting that.


    My gen 1 17L will shoot pretty comparatively with my Sig P210 off of sandbags, not better, but it'll run right up there close to it in terms of groups and consistency at 25m and out to 50m. Pretty good considering I paid $500 CAD for it in the 1990s sometime. Heh, won't shoot +p out of it though, it likes White Box 115gr just fine, and some 124 and 147 handloads have been pretty decent with it too, oddly enough.

  • To my knowledge all Glocks are rated for +P?

    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” - Abraham Lincoln

    Paraphrased from his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois.

  • 9mm NATO is actually closer to +P than standard SAAMI specifications, and the Glock 17 is a military sidearm.

    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” - Abraham Lincoln

    Paraphrased from his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois.

  • That's, correct IMO, +p yes, but not +p+, which is what I first was referring to. Most everything NATO/Military spec is rated for +p pretty much when you consider how close the pressures are on paper, but not +p+ pressures, which is what I thought I wrote (quote below). 9 P is around 35000, +p is typically 38 to 39ish thousand PSI, and +p+ god only knows what, anything higher than +p generally. The new M17/P320 is rated for +p, in fact the specific ammo that the US Army is using so far as HP rounds go is +p IIRC. +p+ enters a no mans land IMO, as there isn't really a top end rating for that, and again in my experience most polymer framed handguns don't last long with anything past +p.


    IMO it's a subject that can be a bit confusing, all NATO spec handguns have to run NATO ammunition, hence the NATO 9mm being over pressurized compared to 9P, to help ensure functionality. Sometimes that ends up being close to, over, or even a bit behind typical 9mm +P pressures, as the same ammo can have much different results in differing handguns and barrel lengths. Overall though, what I first posted (below) is correct IMO, +p is one thing, but +p+ ammo for 9mm will generally greatly abbreviate the service life of most handguns, especially non-metal framed ones.


    Perhaps you thought I meant I wouldn't run +p in my 17L due to pressure worries, no, it'll handle that just fine based on specs, but since it's a target pistol I don't see much point, which is the reason why I don't. I won't run +p+ or any wizz bang high velocity 9mm rounds in any of my polymer framed under any circumstances though, which is my original point. I've seen WAY to many insert/slide rail seperations and other catostrophic failures due to short/mid term use of such ammo in various handguns. Even metal framed ones, the 92F in particular, will fail rapidly as I said (light slide doesn't help here).


    edit -


    Quote

    Edit - that video in the above post from Gscholz makes a very valid point at the end. A LOT of 9mm pistols are NOT rated to run +p+ 9mm ammo. In fact nearly all aren't. RUAG made some of the first +p+ 9 ammo, and they called it "Glock Breaker" for a good reason. They didn't have a single G17 in testing go past 2000 rounds, and the G19s due to their smaller size blew up even faster.

    This is newer RUAG ammo, but the stuff I'm familiar with and used the most was their earlier 75gr and some 85gr like this, the 75 doing warp speed, pushing 1800fps or even faster. That ammo brutalized pretty much every polymer framed handgun they ran it through in short order. Very lethal ammo, huge muzzle flash which made it not optimal for low light conditions, as well as the obvious heavier recoil impulse, as well as causing the catastrophic failures it was nicknamed for.


    https://www.ammunitiondepot.co…-lead-free-frangible.html

  • I have heard the nato stuff is hotter than 'standard' pressure. You can rate a gun any way you like but anything like +p+ is gonna hurt any semi auto... after a while. Revolvers were not immune.. the model 19 was a K frame smith rated for .357 ammo... At the time... specs were.... all over the place for ammo... some companies were loading .357 to pressures that were getting into rifle pressures. Super Vel among others... was loading .357 ammo that gave an honest 1550 fps with a 158 grain bullet. that stuff tears up guns. The 19 really suffered.


    all Semi autos I know of have some bit of unsupported case in the chamber.. Glocks are most likely the worst. the dreaded 'glock bulge' is just the case bulging where it is not supported and some have blown out. The .40 was/is the worst in glocks I hear.


    The 45 acp is not a high pressure round but the 1911 has been converted to LOT's of nasty magnum style calibers like the 45 mag or the Rowland. The 38 super is a pretty high pressure round and is called +p by all ammo makers but it is not a +P load.. it is the standard load... it was done to keep people from running Super ammo in 38 auto guns.


    Revolvers obviously... .are gonna handle way higher pressures... but at some point the guns either get huge or capacity is cut to say 5 rounds. The L frame will handle 8 rounds of .357 but more common is 7 round cylinders.


    Super Vel is back.... I bet it is hot. several other companies like buffalo bore make really hot revolver ammo.


    lazs

    "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."



    Pancho Villa, last words (1877 - 1923)

  • The point is I guess that really hot ammo is hard on guns.... trying to magnumize the 9mm is a really bad idea.


    I have been loading some 9mm for a few guns... staying within standard pressures and with cast and coated slugs which are lower pressure than jacketed but higher velocity. The 9mm case is tiny... Even fast burning powders like WW231 fill it to the base of the bullet. Sooo... getting a short enough overall length with bullets over 124 grain (and even them) you run the risk of compressing the powder charge which can get nasty.


    The .357 sig case is a lot higher capacity as is the 38 Super (which I think is the best choice)


    lazs

    "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."



    Pancho Villa, last words (1877 - 1923)

  • There is no standard for +P+ so no manufacturer will rate their guns for something that is not clearly defined. I don't know when those G17 tests Gman mentioned took place but modern Glocks in 9 mm, .40 S&W and .357 Sig all use the same frames and recoil spring assemblies... So if a 9 mm would break at +P+ loads, the .357 Sig would break at normal pressures. You can even get their tiny pinky guns in .357 Sig. If they were to break after 2000 rounds they would not be a viable product.


    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” - Abraham Lincoln

    Paraphrased from his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois.

  • My Sig P226 was a British NATO sidearm. Tho I would only use +p in pistols actually designed for that.

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  • OK so from Glock representative Darrel in Georgia on the firearmstalk forum:


    There is not a problem with firing +P or +P+ FACTORY ammo out of a Glock weapon. We DO NOT recommend feeding any of our pistols a steady diet of this type of ammo due to the excessive pressures that CAN cause excessive wear on the weapon. We would recommend that the end user be aware of the extra pressure these rounds can exert on the weapon and would recommend them to upgrade their recoil spring at a rate of once every 2,000 rounds ( of +P or +P+ ) instead of our normal recommended number of 3,000-5,000 regular rounds.


    So unless you're using +P+ for practice, which is stupidly expensive anyways, you should have no problem using +P+ in a Glock.

    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” - Abraham Lincoln

    Paraphrased from his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois.

  • +p+9mm as stated has no upper limit, it's just anything beyond +p. To say that you can just change out the recoil spring assembly and be good to go with +p+ is ridiculous. .357Sig is in no way remotely close to the pressures that GlockBreaker RUAG ammo is - again we're talking about 75 gr ammo that would be well into the high 40k range and likely into the 50s for pressure, pushing the round at anywhere to 1800 and even 2000fps and beyond.


    If you want to hear it from the horses mouth, call up Glock Canada, ask for Gino (he runs Glock Canada). He'll tell you about the dozens of Glocks my company sent in over the years with catastrophic failures, and certainly about the ones we tested the RUAG ammunition in (RUAG's North American Rep Marcus was based with our company and used our 50m indoor pistol range for this testing, circa 2002 to 2004 or so).


    I'm not saying and didn't say that ALL +p+ ammunition will cause rapid wear and greatly reduce the service life to 2k or less, only that due to there being no upper limit that handguns certified in most Western militaries aren't rated for it for that specific reason. Frangible 75gr +p+ Ruag and other manufacturers pushing out warp speed +p+ ammo will all have the same results we did - abbreviated the service life by 4x or more, and causing catastrophic failures, typically a slide separation or other polymer/insert type of failure.


    To say you won't have any problems using +P+ in a Glock is way oversimplified. If I was to send you 3000 rounds of RUAG 75 +p+, I can with 100% certainty say that your Glock handgun WILL die before you complete those rounds. However if I was to send you 5000 rounds of say Gold Dot +p+, odds are with a new Glock 17/19 it'll survive that. It greatly depends on just how much pressure the +p+ round is making, and again, due to there being no ++p+ category/upper end of +p+, it's incorrect to say "you'll be fine running +p+" in a Glock handgun. With SOME +p+, yes, others, no, it depends on the pressure and round count as a ratio. You could also call RUAG up and ask them about their Glock Breaker ammunition, and why it was coined with that name.


    Most people just don't put enough ammunition through their handguns to have any idea what service life actually is and what it means. Glock .40 can G22 models for example, have a service life of 20k rounds according to the factory. Due to having 40 cal pressures in what was a 9mm sized design, good luck finding many, if any, that actually make it to that number. Ask any armorer from any department in the world with G22s, and you'll get the same story, few, very few, will ever reach much less exceed that service life number. Now imagine putting another 15 or 20k of pressure into that system. 20k service life becomes 5, or 2k in our testing with the GB Ruag 9mm.


    If you're betting your life on a polymer framed handgun, running any +p+ IMO long term is a bad idea, I can only pull data from our rental/lending line which all used White Box winclean ammo, and those results are bad enough in terms of the number of rounds between failures in most types. We didn't track anything with +p+ other than the specific tests RUAG did with Glock Canada using our ranges, but I do know what I've seen over the years and the millions of rounds I've seen go through handguns, and what +p+ of any pressure eventually does.


    Most 9mm Glocks only have a 20k, some a 40k service life expectancy too, so for the Glock rep on that US forum to claim that just changing out the recoil spring assembly makes it "all good" to run +p+, again, is ridiculously oversimplified. Any +p+ will absolutely reduce that service life number, it simply has to, its basic physics. Yes, they'll run for a while, but to define that while is impossible, and will vary greatly as the pressures change and in particular increase.

  • If you're talking ridiculously over pressured rounds then sure. I guess that's why the Glock guy specified "+P or +P+ FACTORY ammo"... NATO proof test for 9 mm guns is 45,700 psi, but +P is only rated at 38,000 and +P+ typically in the low 40,000s, so if you're going into the 50,000 range you're way beyond any reasonable safety margin.

    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” - Abraham Lincoln

    Paraphrased from his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois.

  • Ruag and piles of other companies make FACTORY ammo that is >45k or higher pressure. Even mid 40s, those handguns will have catastrophic failures at 3 to 4x greater than the service life. Again, I point to Glock's own data on their .40cal line of handguns which use the 9mm sized frames/system. Few if any reach their 20k service life, and 40cal ammo's pressure certainly isn't as high as the NATO tested to 45,700.


    I guess to define +p+ being "okay" to use depends on how many rounds you consider to be a realistic service life. Based on the numbers, not just from +p+, but also as I've said 40cal in 9mm sized Glock handguns (and others), you certainly aren't able to train much with your carry ammunition in your carry weapon if you're using +p+, without greatly increasing the possibility of a failure and an inopportune time in the field.


    Incidentally, the Glock .357 Sig caliber pistols only had a 15k service life from the factory. Not sure if that's still the case, but they were also pretty much just their 9mm design with a 357sig barrel.

  • But going back to my original point is that you can get .357 Sig performance out of 9 mm +P or +P+ at reasonable pressure levels and with insignificant additional wear to your gun, unless you only shoot over pressure rounds. Conversely if you can afford to practice with Speer Gold Dot +P+ you can also afford to buy a new gun after a few thousand rounds...

    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” - Abraham Lincoln

    Paraphrased from his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois.

  • Either way it would be cheaper than .357 Sig...

    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” - Abraham Lincoln

    Paraphrased from his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois.

  • But going back to my original point is that you can get .357 Sig performance out of 9 mm +P or +P+ at reasonable pressure levels and with insignificant additional wear to your gun, unless you only shoot over pressure rounds. Conversely if you can afford to practice with Speer Gold Dot +P+ you can also afford to buy a new gun after a few thousand rounds...

    Agreed. Regarding the afford part, this is something I frequently used to seize upon in online discussions. SO many tards out there will claim they have 100,000 rounds of this through that, yet they always drive a piece of shit, whine about tipping 5$ when you're out for dinner after training/shooting, etc etc. When you do the math on what the costs are for the round counts they claim, and also the time involved to actually SHOOT that much ammo, it always ends with BS.

  • Ok.. look.. nothing I have said is false... +P+ is all over the place.. I have loaded +p+ before +p+ existed.. I have wrecked more than a few guns and wish I had not. I have seen the bottom blow out of a glock at the range with .40 rounds.. no idea what they were.


    I would not NOT go to a glock forum to get info on a glocks strengths or weaknesses.. other fanbois are sorta the same. the bottom line is that if you use the hottest ammo that is available.. you will ruin guns in relatively short order.. I have seen Mauser actions with the lugs peened back to uselessness


    Ok.. revolvers.. I have done horrendous rounds through em.. I also cracked a cylinder on a Ruger Super BH.. go to a Ruger fanboi site and they will tell you the BH is a 'tank' you can't hurt em! I did.. I killed a gorgeous K38 with hot loads that bigger revolvers would have handled.. All steel semi autos are kinda tough.. they may have other problems or not but tough is not one. The weakest design may be the Berreta 92 slide.. which will crack.


    Glocks? shoot factory ammo and thousands of rounds later it will most likely be fine.. Right now the controversy is that with the stupid rifling that lead slugs might leave lead in the rifling which increases pressure.. glock owners have bought aftermarket barrels to get around this.. but they are not cheap


    Bottom line? anything over standard pressure shortens the life of the gun.. the military found this shit out on the 92 which was designed for standard pressure and not NATO.. they got cracked slides.


    lazs

    "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."



    Pancho Villa, last words (1877 - 1923)

  • Ok... cause I been shooting 1911's a bit lately.. one with 15k or a bit more through it and one almost new with only a few rounds.. 2k? The 45acp is low pressure.. the 1911 is way the fuck overbuilt. The standard load is 230 grain FMJ at around 850 fps.. new ammo goes from 800-900 fps and no 1911 gives a fuck. they hum right along..


    Sooo my loads.. i was not trying to get some kind of killer load. but I do cast slugs and I wanted some kind of bullet shape that was better than FMJ and did not involve some exotic and expensive HP..


    What I ended up with is a target load. from the 1950's.. a semi wad cutter cast bullet of 200 grains.. the SWC is an excellent hunting round but was for the 1911..........a target round cause it punches nice neat holes in paper (or tissue) These target loads were meant to be low pressure and low velocity. some as low as 600 fps. Accuracy was one hole groups at 25 yards..


    For me? and many others.. we loaded the 200 swc at around 1000 fps.. mine run almost 1100 fps.. this gets me out to 100 yards really well with 1 inch groups at 25 yards.. it does kick a bit but is not a hot load.. I could go higher.


    Pick a round..................I can load it any way you like.. it may be 'safe' but is it something that you want to shoot thousands of rounds of?


    You decide.


    lazs

    "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."



    Pancho Villa, last words (1877 - 1923)

  • Oh.. I have seen factory loads for the 1911 45 acp that are insane.. 180 grain bullets at 1300 fps... 160 grain at 1500 fps.. this from a 5" barrel.


    Not gonna shoot em in my gun


    lazs

    "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."



    Pancho Villa, last words (1877 - 1923)

  • Would be awesome in a carbine or SMG though, like a Thompson...

    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” - Abraham Lincoln

    Paraphrased from his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois.

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