I never said a lump of DNA at a week was not a human being.... A potential one. Takes more to be human that a few DNA cells.
Time for compromise is over? LOL.... There are hundreds of worse things to fall on your sword over.
I did not make up my god. He gave me the ability to know his will tho. We don't always agree. that's when I call in the Holy ghost. that guy is reasonable.
lazs
something else... IIRC was there a message to a church about being neither hot or cold...
and was called on it... for being neither...
some folks are pretty hot about abortion...
and according to the history in Canaan folks paid for sacrificing children...
so...
the reaction from some is they consider abortion murder upon the altar of selfishness... and convenience
Display Moreἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
τὸν θεόν
vs.
θεὸς
"The God" with the definite article is, as far as I know, universally accepted to be referring to God, and is used in the place of God's personal name (Jehovah or Yahweh, depending on whether you would like to call the son Jesus or Yahshua. יהוה in Hebrew).
"God" without the definite article can be interpreted in several ways, including as a descriptor or title. It may or may not refer to "The God" himself. So One possible interpretation of the last phrase is that the "Word" was "Like God" or "Godlike".
Also of note, the word was "pros" "The God", or toward God. This implies proximity, but separate individuals, helping to clarify "God" in the last phrase being descriptive.
"But SWTarget, you're sure parsing words"
Not really. The Bible explains itself when taken in full context, which is why I suggested reviewing John 17:21-23 (mind you, same book, same writer, so there is no disagreement between opinions of different Bible writers)
So, Jesus is praying (if he is God in Human form, who is he praying to?)
" so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me."
So if being in union with his father means they are the same person, then Jesus praying that his apostles be in union with them would make not a Trinitarian God, but a God of multitudes. He would be praying that his apostles somehow literally meld into one being. This makes no logical sense.
Jesus says he received glory from God. If he is God, he doesn't receive it, but has it inherently. Jesus says the Father loves him. While everyone should love themselves, he is clearly not talking about loving himself, but being loved by another personage.
Or how about John (same writer again) 14:28:
"You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am."
If Jesus and God are one person, then logically one cannot be greater than the other. But Jesus says it plainly.
How about John (same writer!!) 20:17:
Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”
Jesus again clearly refers to returning to someone, not that he is that person. He furthermore refers to his apostles as his "brothers." So while the apostles may share a future princely reward in a heavenly kingdom, and thus share a measure of equality with Jesus, they certainly do not and are not equal to God himself.
Many other examples to point to that Jesus and God are clearly separate individuals, but it's late and I'm going to bed. I invite you to reflect on the full context. And don't misunderstand . . . recognizing Jesus' role as Messiah is clearly crucial to gaining everlasting life (John 17:3), so in no way is Jesus diminished by recognizing his status as being separate from God.
How about if I just call my god Yahweh? I'm good with that and my friend lazs won't ever confuse MY god for his. 
Emmanuel.
Jehovah.
Beth El
Gawd
Dios
La madre de los tomates
Triune, not difficult to grasp.
Apparently it is for some.
Trinity as a doctrine was introduced in the third century. This is a historic fact. There is neither Biblical nor scholarly evidence that it was at all considered by the first century Christians, and certainly wasn't a doctrine taught by the apostles who knew Jesus.
Bible verses used by those who promote Trinity do not stand up to close scrutiny when they are placed in their total context. John 1:1 is probably the most cited, but as I pointed out, does not stand up to simple logic. There are two possible interpretations of the use of θεὸς in the text: A: intended to mean God=The Word (Jesus) or B: The Word is being described as being Godlike / Divine in nature, but a separate being. Since both cannot be true, what do other scriptures indicate. As I pointed out, they indicate God and Jesus are separate. Hence the "B" interpretation is the one that should be accepted.
If God and Jesus are separate, there is no "Triune God". There is one God, Jehovah the Father. Jesus is his Son, but not co-equal. Exalted in status, absolutely, but not co-equal.
Phillipians 2:5-6:
"Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God"
But don't take my word for it. I encourage everyone who has a genuine interest to read the Bible and decide for themselves what is logical and true. Happy to continue the conversation with anyone interested.
/endhijack #2 (or is it #3?)
La madre de los tomates
So it’s kind of a gotcha post because you know the word trinity is never used in scripture. You want one of us to spell it out for you.
I asked my wife about it and she sent me this link.
https://overviewbible.com/trinity-bible-verses/
What is revealed to you when you read that is for you. I’m not posting to change your mind.
Razer, thanks for sharing. I can see how if one already believes in Trinity that those would be supportive of that belief. But if you aren't already starting there, I'm very hard pressed to see how these are indicating they are one being. Just one example, but basically similar in all of them:
“And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
If the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, it clearly must be separate from Jesus.
If Jesus is God, who is speaking out of heaven? Someone who is not Jesus.
A human Father and a Son are different people, are they not? Why would the terms be used any differently when relating to the spiritual realm?
So to me, the viewpoint that these scriptures refer to three different "people" appears just as valid. When coupled with other examples, a few of which I've already provided, in my view we're back to the A vs. B logical argument, and "B" seems more correct.
Sidenote, the way Holy Spirit is talked about often makes it sound more like a force rather than a personality. "Spirit of God" as God's power, if you will. Also consider that unlike the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit appears to have no proper name (Father and Son being Jehovah and Jesus).
I understand you may not agree. But I believe it is healthy for one to examine his spiritual health from time to time.
2 Corinthians 13:5a "Keep testing whether you are in the faith; keep proving what you yourselves are."
The holy spirit is a reasonable guy.
elphie.... I will never confuse your god with mine. Even tho they are the same. How we view them is much different.
iron. if the end times is abortion? it is not half the people who want some form of abortion it is like 70% or so.
lazs
If abortion were to be declared legal and even moral forever, it still should not be solely a woman’s choice… there is a father who should have a say in the matter.
Display MoreThe holy spirit is a reasonable guy.
elphie.... I will never confuse your god with mine. Even tho they are the same. How we view them is much different.
iron. if the end times is abortion? it is not half the people who want some form of abortion it is like 70% or so.
lazs
last reports I saw SEEM to claim otherwise... more are against past a certain point... ???
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